After a much awaited announcement from Proz.com regarding changes to the site, many translators yesterday felt we had won. Many people celebrated Henry’s changes and were ready to thank him for acknowledging our demands and taking the translator’s side in what the site now admits is a problem to which it contributed.
I have to admit, the phrasing behind these changes is great. I worked in sales for a while and I admire how Proz made their “efforts” look professional and serious. Henry’s heartfelt little video with his hair all undone as if he’d been working like a maniac and his facial expressions accompanying words of admiration and support for translator was lovely, really! Two thumbs up to Henry’s performance! I almost bought it myself. But then I decided to read, and I mean REALLY read the changes announced. Once I did that, I realized our only victory was to get the site to admit a rates decrease exists, and that Proz helped it happen. Everything else is like trying to close up an open heart wound with a band-aid. Here’s why:
Change number 1:
“1. The pricing field will be removed from the job posting form.
This change is consistent with the fact that the individual translator is in the best position to determine what he or she needs to charge to deliver the quality required on a particular job.”
This is exactly what we were asking for, in fact the phrasing is clearly inspired on Wendell’s proposal and if it were all true I’d be applauding Henry and sending him a thank you basket instead of writing this post… but then comes change number 2.
“2. When consistent with member preference, posters will be given an opportunity to specify a budget range (after having posted).
An option to enter budget information will appear, with a suitable explanation, when among those who meet the specified criteria there are one or more members who prefer to take budget information into consideration when deciding whether or not to quote.”
Which basically means outsourcers will still be able to set price ranges (for instance 0.01 to 0.015), but the only people that will be able to see that are the linguists who opted in to see pricing information, the rest will be blind to the abusive price range. Is it just me or is this starting to contradict change number 1? I’ll hand it to them, this one is ambiguous and could be interpreted differently, so just to make it clear that the site is not making any substantial changes, but simply adopting a “hear no evil, see no evil” policy change 3 tells us:
“ 3. Even when a client budget range has been specified, it will not be published by default.
Client budget ranges will be accessible only to members who (1) have expressed a preference to consider client budgets, and (2) meet the specified job criteria. (This eliminates the possibility for the job posting system to be used to "popularize" low rates.)”
The problem will still be there. Outsourcers will still be able to try to stick us with abusive, cut-throat rates; we can just choose not to see them! So the problem is not really solved, it’s just not visible anymore.
Then comes the really scary one, change number 4:
“4. More information -- supplied by the community -- will be made available concerning the price of professional translation.
In the void left by the decreased publication of poster positions on rates, guides entitled "Determining what service you need and what it will cost" and "Determining your rates and fees as a translator", will be introduced. These guides, linked to from the job posting and job quoting forms, are already being built by the ProZ.com community in the ProZ.com wiki. (Please consider contributing.)
Together with the guides, real-time data on rates charged by ProZ.com members will be made available for reference by job posters and those quoting. (This will be the topic of further notices in this site area.)”
I’m no economy expert, but I’m pretty sure COMPETETION is a determining factor in a market economy. Maybe I’m understanding this one wrong, but it seems to me Proz is somehow planning to gather information about rates from us, and give it to outsourcers to help guide them when SETTING RATES (change 2, see how they’re still able to set rates for us?). Needless, to say, the system relies on very sensitive information that could be used against translators in more ways than one.
Conclusion
A long time ago when Proz very questionably created Turn-Key translations and clearly offered agency-like services many of us shared our concerns with Henry. Back then, I pointed out several ethical/legal issues that Henry never replied to, but which in complete violation of the nulla poena sine lege principle lead to a brand new rule on the site banning us from raising legal questions in forums in order to give the Thought Police yet another rule with which to justify their abusive use of censorship. Back then, the question Henry never answered was whether he was missing our point to avoid having to do the right thing or if he was missing it because he’s just not capable of understanding what we, as paying customers, are really asking Proz.com to do. I am once again left with the same question. Did Henry miss the point about NOT LETTING OUTSOURCERS DETERMINE RATES FOR US because it’s inconvenient for the site (on the count that they might possibly lose all those agencies as clients) or are they missing it because they just don’t get it? I’m inclined to the one where actually making a difference could affect Proz.com’s interests, how about you?
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14 comments:
I think that the moves that ProZ has made are a step in the right direction. ProZ is a big site for translators, perhaps the biggest, but still a fairly small blip on the internet. What surprises me is that translators actually think that a change to any of ProZ's job listing policies will effect the price of translation at large. If the lowball agencies can't find what they want on ProZ they will just go elsewhere.
After reading very carefully the changes proposed by Henry and the site staff, I have the feeling that everything remains the same. The arguments given to do, or better said not to do something, are the typical one of the sales claim management: Yes, you're right, but bla bla bla... The case is that the product remains exactly the same, but they still try to sell it to us with his best clothes.
Nevertheless, as we say in Spain: La mona, aunque se vista de seda, mona se queda.
@ Pablo: I couldn't agree more!
@ Wanderjenn: how can it be a step in the right direction if they didn't actually change anything? The only thing different now is that you can opt out of seeing abusive job postings, but there's nothing stopping outsourcers from setting rates.
@ Wanderjenn: In my humble opinion, then they should go elsewhere. And yes, a change of ProZ's job pricing policies will effect the price of translation at large as it has already been done, but in the worst sense for the translators.
At least they will not be annoying professionals who belong to the Proz-net for other reasons than work for misery prices. If we were all so conformist as some of us, we would still have the working conditions we had before the Industrial Revolution...
As you know, Paula, I've stated elsewhere that I didn't consider the whole petition to be a productive use of energy and that some people simply give ProZ & sites of that sort too much "power" over their lives by failing to develop a healthy business according to sound, proven principles. I am surprised that H & Co did in fact respond in the scope they did, and I would disagree with the suggestion that things will "remain the same". They will indeed change, but not necessarily in a way we can predict except after the fact. Things may remain the same in that market dynamics will continue to prevail: those who play in a "commodity market" will find their "goods" judged according to very different criteria than those who offer or create a "product" which is in short supply and for which they can name the price. Differentiate yourself and SELL the difference. Anything else will get you a bowl of ramen noodles for dinner and not much more.
Neo-Marxist calls (often from FR interestingly) for market control and "fair rates" to be imposed for the proletariat translators are a sad joke that will simply be made at the expense of the profession. I could write pages of stirring rhetoric were I inclined to, calling for my peers to man (or woman?) the barricades and bayonet the customer until he (wicked exploiters are usually male, right?) coughs up the requisite cash. But even that wouldn't solve the problem of the many translators who are basically incapable of coping with customers and ordinary business and who might be better off under a rock somewhere.
You are right - I posted the following on proz (see the link below)
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/161854-how_to_improve_proz_blue_board_and_rates_problem_at_the_same_time.html
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Proz should allow paying translators to add additional categorization in a blue board - dividing translation companies into 3 major groups.
0-6 cents - Low end bottom feeders
7-12 cents - Medium end TAs
13 and up - Upscale TAs
It will help very quickly to divide good and bad companies.
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I improved on it ad result of some comments:
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More money is better 09:28
I posted this to start discussion and to convince Proz to decide, who is the main customer for them, if the translation agencies or individual translators.
So far I think they are trying to be dual agent, that is to make money on both sides of the fence (smile), and as we can see from their reaction, the petition of nearly 1000 translators got their attention.
So this is a proposal to allow translators to brand agencies as low, medium or upscale.
We can also evaluate them as restaurants in five categories,
from $, $$, $$$, $$$$, and $$$$$.
$ = <$.04
$$ = $.05-$.08
$$$ = $.09-$.12
$$$$ = $.13 - $.16
$$$$$ = $.17 - and up
This could be easily added to a blue board and to every job posting, so that everybody knows, what type of the agency is doing the posting. If it is a serious outfit, or some new bottom feeder.
This would be probably better and will be more fair.
But all this is to start serious discussion about rates, and quality.
As I am saying for a long time.
Buying translation is like buying a car. You usually get what you pay for.
Why the translation business should be any different?
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And I added that Proz MUST decide about their priorities:
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We have to decide what we can fix 10:31
We can't fix economic crisis and the fact that some places are cheaper than others. I don't think we should deal with that.
What we can do is to use our collective power and evaluate translation agencies according to prices they are willing to pay to us.
Because we do not want to fix the above, we can use one scale to rate how much the translation agencies are paying per word.
We have to agree on how to count it (some European agencies are doing per line or per character or per standard page pricing, but this can be solved by making conversion tables.
We have to also count apples to apples, that is straight translation only, and turn key product would have quite different pricing.
But all this are details only.
As long as Proz will agree to the basic principle of giving translators the power to rate how much agency pay to them, and it will be visible on all posting of the agency, I am quite sure a lot of bottom feeding agencies will try to figure out how to get out of that rating.
And here the advantage of Proz being 800 pound gorilla on translation market comes handy. But it is connected to their business model and decision, which Proz have to make quite soon.
Who is Proz bread and butter customer. Translator or TA?
I don't know and this is why I started this discussion.
But I am quite sure, if translators are not the bread and butter Proz customers, they will realize it soon, they are the smartest bunch of people I ever had the honor to meet.
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And if Proz decides that translators are secondary for them, I am quite sure that there are plenty of websites, which think translators are first and will allow the publishing of rating evaluation of TAs, so that we can know immediately.
It should be like when we are buying cars, if we go to a Lexus or Mercedes dealership, we know it will cost us, but we would get something.
On the other hand, if we are buying from Henry's affordable used car lot, we know Buyer beware.
Why shoudl we can't have the same chance with TAs?
I agree that the changes ProZ is implementing are just cosmetic.
But the market works both ways and every attempt I've witnessed to try and set prices has flopped, or distorted the system, bringing more bad than good consequences.
When you go to a site to buy a camera you can specify criteria like brand, pixels and PRICE. When you want to buy a car you go to dealers that sell the car you can afford.
Informed decision is the goal.
There will ALWAYS exist clients who will not pay my rate, but they will also not have my grade of service.
What I have proposed to ProZ is a way to allow BOTH, clients and translators, to take informed decisions. Unfortunately, they did not think it was worth planning and/or doing.
Uldis Liepkalns asked me to post this comment for him since he's having trouble with the comments feature:
Yeah, watched H's video clip yesterday. Wasted about half an hour on that (It's quite an improvement, as it was 2 days in Warsaw and 1500 kilometers driving on last "old" mods' meeting in W...arsaw on February 2009). Henry's address there gave about as much useful info and proposals as his recent video address. Basically it burned down to (precise quote): "Who the hell do think you are that you think you will tell me how to run my business..."
@Kevin: Thanks for your comments. We agree on one thing: there’s no telling where this is going! As far as “neo-marxist calls for market control…” that’s not what any of us were asking for. We were simply asking Proz to remove features that let outsourcers set rates for us. It’s true that when you buy certain products you purchase them within your price range, but what’s not true is that if you walk up to your car salesmen and tell him all you can afford is 10 bucks he’ll sell you a car for that price. Even used car salesmen have limits, why can’t translators?
I agree with you on another point, a huge part of the problem is caused by desperate, unprofessional translators who are incapable of effectively negotiating their prices. However, the fact that they are one part of the problem that we can’t fix doesn’t mean we should try to fix the other parts. If several things break in your car engine and you can’t afford a new car, do you not fix any of the parts just because several parts are broken?
@Radovan: I love your suggestion for the blueboard. However, since many Proz.com users don’t have access to the BB, that only fixes part of the problem. It’s still a great start though!
@José: I agree, setting prices doesn’t work, but that is not what we are trying to do. What we were trying to do was set fair negotiating terms. The proposal had absolutely nothing to do with price setting. On the contrary, we just asked Proz to change a couple of simple features on the site so that people could actually quote on jobs, just like in every other profession or trade.
@Uldis: I rarely get to say this, but I totally agree with you this time.
Correction: the sentence that reads: "However, the fact that they are one part of the problem that we can’t fix doesn’t mean we should try to fix the other parts" should read: "However, the fact that they are one part of the problem that we can’t fix doesn’t mean we should NOT try to fix the other parts..."
@Paula: I sure understood what the proposal was, and I disagree. Maybe I should have explained my suggestion to ProZ, which I believe is far fairer to both sides than sending me tons of requests from outsourcers that will never pay my rate. Also, if they get a ton of quotes, life can become quite miserable for them too.
What I suggested is for proZ to ENFORCE price declaration by outsourcers, so that I (and anybody else) would only receive requests for jobs ABOVE MY MINIMUM. Also, the outsourcers would know, before they posted, what percentage of the eligible translators they would reach with the rate offered. THAT would educate serious outsourcers. The other kind, nothing will.
@Paula (original posting): Point #4 is more than scary; I wonder about its legality. Proz has the right to look through its data for trends, but this is social engineering, directing customers towards some kind of mean as represented by the past. It is tantamount to telling translators to quit Proz, since their pricing data will be used against them in the future.
Tracing the situation for many years - I worked as a translator for last 14 years - I can say that sites like ProZ.com contribute in reducing of rates giving the opportunity for participation of inexperienced, untrained interpreters and translators from low-paying countries with no proven professional skills. So I often see on ProZ stupid questions from students who haven’t even time to go to school because they are overworked. I also often have to read questions from my Russian colleagues in connection with the translations, in my case, from Dutch. These questions often indicate a lack of language skills and, having looked at the profile, I get convinced that the Dutch had never been their main working/study language, but only, in best case, so-called "B"-language. On such questions, I even refuse to answer.
Besides, I doubt very much that my Russian colleagues are great taxpayers, who should pay 30 to 50% income tax.
Thus, paid members Prose provide an opportunity to not-paying participates to take part in price-setting and, thus, make participation of colleagues from the U.S. and Europe meaningless.
Of course, this only describes the particular situation on one hand and confirm the ‘open market’ circumstances on another hand, but I think that many of my professional colleagues will be able to confirm that this situation also contribute in the reducing of rates.
PS: sorry for bad English - it is not my active working language.
@ José: nothing in the proposal would have involved anyone “sending you tons of requests from outsourcers that will never pay my rate.” Is there a chance we’re talking about different proposals?
I understand the solution you’re proposing, but I think there’s a problem with it: outsourcers are still setting prices for translators.
@ Alan: very interesting question. To be honest, I hadn’t analyzed this from a legal point of view yet. I think I need to re-read and re-think. Thanks!
@ Marina: thanks for your comment. When you mention questions that show lack of language skills, you’re referring to Kudoz, right? That’s another huge problem! I’ve seen a lot of points awarded to answers that are flat-out wrong, and worst of all, I see a lot of colleagues resorting to the Kudoz glossary as if it were a reliable source!
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