Translation and Ethics

After a much awaited announcement from Proz.com regarding changes to the site, many translators yesterday felt we had won. Many people celebrated Henry’s changes and were ready to thank him for acknowledging our demands and taking the translator’s side in what the site now admits is a problem to which it contributed.

I have to admit, the phrasing behind these changes is great. I worked in sales for a while and I admire how Proz made their “efforts” look professional and serious. Henry’s heartfelt little video with his hair all undone as if he’d been working like a maniac and his facial expressions accompanying words of admiration and support for translator was lovely, really! Two thumbs up to Henry’s performance! I almost bought it myself. But then I decided to read, and I mean REALLY read the changes announced. Once I did that, I realized our only victory was to get the site to admit a rates decrease exists, and that Proz helped it happen. Everything else is like trying to close up an open heart wound with a band-aid. Here’s why:

Change number 1:

“1. The pricing field will be removed from the job posting form.

This change is consistent with the fact that the individual translator is in the best position to determine what he or she needs to charge to deliver the quality required on a particular job.”

This is exactly what we were asking for, in fact the phrasing is clearly inspired on Wendell’s proposal and if it were all true I’d be applauding Henry and sending him a thank you basket instead of writing this post… but then comes change number 2.

“2. When consistent with member preference, posters will be given an opportunity to specify a budget range (after having posted).

An option to enter budget information will appear, with a suitable explanation, when among those who meet the specified criteria there are one or more members who prefer to take budget information into consideration when deciding whether or not to quote.”

Which basically means outsourcers will still be able to set price ranges (for instance 0.01 to 0.015), but the only people that will be able to see that are the linguists who opted in to see pricing information, the rest will be blind to the abusive price range. Is it just me or is this starting to contradict change number 1? I’ll hand it to them, this one is ambiguous and could be interpreted differently, so just to make it clear that the site is not making any substantial changes, but simply adopting a “hear no evil, see no evil” policy change 3 tells us:

“ 3. Even when a client budget range has been specified, it will not be published by default.

Client budget ranges will be accessible only to members who (1) have expressed a preference to consider client budgets, and (2) meet the specified job criteria. (This eliminates the possibility for the job posting system to be used to "popularize" low rates.)”

The problem will still be there. Outsourcers will still be able to try to stick us with abusive, cut-throat rates; we can just choose not to see them! So the problem is not really solved, it’s just not visible anymore.

Then comes the really scary one, change number 4:

“4. More information -- supplied by the community -- will be made available concerning the price of professional translation.

In the void left by the decreased publication of poster positions on rates, guides entitled "Determining what service you need and what it will cost" and "Determining your rates and fees as a translator", will be introduced. These guides, linked to from the job posting and job quoting forms, are already being built by the ProZ.com community in the ProZ.com wiki. (Please consider contributing.)

Together with the guides, real-time data on rates charged by ProZ.com members will be made available for reference by job posters and those quoting. (This will be the topic of further notices in this site area.)”

I’m no economy expert, but I’m pretty sure COMPETETION is a determining factor in a market economy. Maybe I’m understanding this one wrong, but it seems to me Proz is somehow planning to gather information about rates from us, and give it to outsourcers to help guide them when SETTING RATES (change 2, see how they’re still able to set rates for us?). Needless, to say, the system relies on very sensitive information that could be used against translators in more ways than one.

Conclusion

A long time ago when Proz very questionably created Turn-Key translations and clearly offered agency-like services many of us shared our concerns with Henry. Back then, I pointed out several ethical/legal issues that Henry never replied to, but which in complete violation of the nulla poena sine lege principle lead to a brand new rule on the site banning us from raising legal questions in forums in order to give the Thought Police yet another rule with which to justify their abusive use of censorship. Back then, the question Henry never answered was whether he was missing our point to avoid having to do the right thing or if he was missing it because he’s just not capable of understanding what we, as paying customers, are really asking Proz.com to do. I am once again left with the same question. Did Henry miss the point about NOT LETTING OUTSOURCERS DETERMINE RATES FOR US because it’s inconvenient for the site (on the count that they might possibly lose all those agencies as clients) or are they missing it because they just don’t get it? I’m inclined to the one where actually making a difference could affect Proz.com’s interests, how about you?

As some of you know, Proz.com is reviewing a proposal that was presented by several colleagues. The site opened a private forum to discuss the implementation of this proposal. I promised to give TEBP members regular updates of what’s being discussed. So this is my first update.

1) Background Information:
First came the petition.

As many of you know, a little while ago some of our colleagues in Italy posted a petition aimed at Proz.com. Although the petition has been closed and no new signatures are being accepted, you can read it here: http://bit.ly/aXbj1o

Then came the proposal.

You can read the proposal here: http://bit.ly/cdmn34 our group discussed it here: http://bit.ly/cEd0ga

Now, the forum.

As a result, Proz invited those of us who cosponsored the petition (please note, I cosponsored as an individual and not on behalf of our entire group since that is clearly a personal decision) to participate in a private forum to discuss the implementation of the petition.

Although my updates will eventually cover every issue, this one focuses on a thread Henry opened under the name “Proposal related to barring outsourcers from offering rate at outset of job discussions.” Before posting my update, please not I specifically asked Henry if I could post these updates in one of the threads and he wrote: “But you don't have to consider anything here confidential, at least not in my opinion. So go ahead and discuss elsewhere, if you want.” For the purpose of this discussion, I will quote some parts of the forum.

The part of the proposal being discussed reads:

1. Job-Posting Form

a) Outsourcers should no longer be permitted to indicate the price they are offering or intend to pay for a given translation or interpreting project, and that portion of the job-posting form should be eliminated.

b) Outsourcers should not include pricing or rate information anywhere else in the body of their job posting. To that end, job postings should be monitored and removed, if necessary.

c) Outsourcers should be advised clearly of the reason for such changes on the form they use to post a job.

d) Pursuant to c), above, we propose that ProZ.com feature the following statement prominently on its job-posting form: “ProZ.com has removed pricing information from the job-posting form because we believe that translators, as professional service providers, are in the best position to determine their own rates, which vary according to type and format of the text involved, the subject matter, the level of urgency, and the technical expertise required, among other factors. ProZ.com is convinced that quality in translation is ensured not by seeking the lowest rate available but by choosing skilled, competent translators. In keeping with the years of commitment and training required to become qualified professionals, translators and interpreters deserve adequate compensation for their work.”

2. Emailing of job offers to individual translators/interpreters using ProZ mail

a) Because of the above policy—that outsourcers may not indicate pricing information or maximums in their offers to translators and interpreters—we propose that the same vigilance be extended to first-contact email messages initiated by outsourcers using the ProZ.com messaging systems. In initiating first contact with a translation professional via such messages for the sole purpose of soliciting candidates for a project, outsourcers may not indicate specific price ranges, limits, or maximums. ProZ.com already possesses the ability to monitor system messages for violations of ProZ.com policies (the profile message form itself states: “Messages may be subject to review or vetting by site staff”); thus, we propose that ProZ.com extend such monitoring to messages initiated by outsourcers for the sole purpose of soliciting services from one or more translation professionals.

b) In addition (or, if the above proposal is not accepted, in the alternative), we propose that ProZ modify the warning language (“Rules for sending profile messages”) that accompanies the email form to include: “Outsourcers initiating first contact with a translation professional for the purpose of soliciting services may not indicate specific pricing, price ranges, limits, or maximums in their messages.”

To this, in the very first page of the thread Henry:
1) Started by saying that he will not agree to implement the part about barring outsources from indicating any offering price.

2) He then quotes the parts of the petition that say "professional service providers are in the best position to determine their own rates,” etc. and agrees with the overall idea. He claims Proz isn’t happy with abusive offers either, but…

“Here is why we won't implement the proposal exactly as stated. The idea of barring outsourcers from indicating any offering price has been considered before, and was discarded, in part because the absence of information from the client related to payment (or "budgeting", if you will) is not necessarily considered to be in the best interest of translators. Among the scenarios that could be considered are the one in which the client has no intention (or ability) to pay a reasonable rate, in which case time will be saved in knowing that at the outset, and the one in which the client is prepared to offer more than some service providers might otherwise quote. (Though much less publicized than the other scenario, such postings are made on a daily basis. Related, one of the actions that has been planned coming out of the petition is that more data on rates be made available to the community.)

Those two scenarios are not the only reason not to ban offering prices, but other than mentioning ProZ.com's guiding principles, and in particular, point #9 at http://www.proz.com/about/cornerstones ("Member discretion is given precedence over administrator discretion"), I'll leave it at that.”

3) Instead he proposes a strategy he summarized as "recognize, contain and filter". Consisting of the following:

“rather than attempting to "ban" (or in truth, "delay") the broaching of rates negotiation by outsourcers, our plan is to provide a dedicated place for budgeting information to be entered, when the client wishes to enter it (with appropriate messaging, perhaps even messaging providing reasons not to enter rates information). With budgeting information having been identified, it would be confined to a dedicated field -- and that approach supported by a policy barring the mention of rates in the *text* of a posting or profile message -- it could then be "contained", with access to it "filtered", thereby eliminating the potential that ProZ.com would be used to propagandize on rates.

How would access be filtered? In a few ways. For one thing, a better job could be done of making sure that job postings below rates you work at do not appear to you, or get emailed to you. For those who do not specify rates in their profiles (or for those who are not logged in), the decision on whether or not to display a job on the home page could be based on the rates of the community. If the outsourcer's budget is lower than the rates charged by 2/3's of the community, for example, it would not appear by default on the home page.

Filtering would also be based on another preference: the option not to see budgeting information at all (even when it has been specified.) Those who prefer to review job postings, or receive profile messages with budgeting information displayed (when it has been supplied by the outsourcer), could set things up that way. Otherwise, by default, outsourcer budgeting information would not be displayed.

As for the messages -- that "professional service providers are in the best position to determine their own rates", "quality in translation is ensured not by seeking the lowest rate available but by choosing skilled, competent translators", "years of commitment and training are required to become qualified" and "translators and interpreters deserve adequate compensation for their work" -- I can imagine a site area dedicated to the topic of rates, linked to from the job posting and quoting forms, with the two "information sheets" proposed elsewhere (one for translators, one for clients, created in a wiki) made available, along with actual data on rates charged by professionals, as expressed in profiles / job posting filters. What such an approach could provide is very significant: a means by which translators can jointly determine (1) the message that goes out to outsourcers and quoters, and (2) the rate below which job postings will not appear by default. In other words, control over all of this would be in the hands of translators (where it is anyway.)”

Forum participants were not happy about this proposal, but despite many well-founded objections Henry said he was not going to budge on this. Since I do not have express permission from forum participants to discuss their posts elsewhere, I cannot provide a transcription of what was said throughout the thread. However, I think my reply to Henry on this may shed some light on what's being discussed:

[quote]The reason I accepted Jared’s invitation to participate in this thread is because I wanted to give Proz the benefit of the doubt. I must admit I was disappointed by Henry’s initial decision not to bar outsourcers from indicating any price offering, but I still read through the whole long thread hoping there was an acceptable, fact-based reason for this. Couldn’t find one yet. So based on the reasons expressed so far, I have some questions for Henry and I respectfully request that each of those questions is answered.

Henry,

1) What would you say if I told you from now on I am only willing to pay $10 dollars a year for full Proz.com membership?

2) As we all know, rates are dropping. That’s why we’re having this discussion in the first place. That in mind, what would you say if I told you the reason I’m only going to pay $10 dollars a year is because I really can’t afford to pay more on the count of that decrease? (Following your logic that there is “nothing inherently wrong” with letting people who don’t have the “ability” to pay reasonable rates post unreasonable offers.)

Henry, you wrote

Now, who would see this posting? Herein lies the big difference between what the working group proposed and what I have called a better solution: In the approach I outlined, by default, no one would see this job! Not on the home page and not on the job listing page. What is more, notifications would not go out. Why? Because the rate would be known, and display and notifications could be filtered accordingly. This job would not be displayed or go to anyone, because it is a commercial job that pays less than 1 cent, and there is no one in the database that accepts less than one cent per word for commercial work. (Fractions of a cent are not recognized.)

You claim this is useful because…

The only way that people would be able to find this job would be to click "also show jobs below my rates." This is not likely to happen frequently, and if it does, at least the viewer will know what he/she is dealing with.

3) Can you provide empirical evidence of how this could help?

4) How exactly will this work? Would all users have to provide Proz with their rates? If so, would that information be public or private? Has Proz assessed the risk of people lowering the rates they input just to be able to see these offers and, therefore, starting a new cycle of low rates?

the situation is not as bad as it appears, one thread focused on that lately

5) Is this based on empirical evidence? If so, can you please name your sources for reference and for the sake of a founded discussion?

Petitioners are so sure that something has changed in the industry, even if it has not (yet) changed for them, that they are deciding to "put their money where their mouth is", and do something that is not in their own best commercial interest.

5) How is what we’re doing not in our best commercial interest? What are you founding this statement on?

I have kicked off a survey to get more insight into the opinions and priorities of ProZ.com members as they pertain to this proposal.

6) What objective criteria are you using for this survey? Was this statement meant to be as condescending as it sounds?

One of the best things about TEBP is the opportunity it has given me to meet wonderful new people all over the world. I have tremendously enjoyed working on this post with Yigit and hope you'll enjoy reading it too!

1) Turkey has a very rich political history. The predecessor of the current Turkish State, the Ottoman Empire, lasted from 1299 to 1922 when Turkey became an imperial monarchy and that monarchy was replaced in 1923 by the Republic of Turkey. Even though you are too young to have actually witnessed the change from one form of government to the other, you grew up in a country with a vast cultural heritage that goes back thousands of years, but that is very young as a de iure state. How would you describe the political scene in which you grew up?

I always remember the September morning in 1980 in which I woke up early with loud announcements made by the military forces in the street that a coup had been made. I did not immediately realize the situation. I was 10 years old. My mother and father explained to me that the military had taken power and a new political era had started in the country. In fact, this was the third military coup in Turkey. Every ten years, in 1960, 1970 and finally in 1980 we have seen coup’de etats. Certainly, you cannot blame people for expecting another one in 1990. But this did not happen. The military did not or could not intervene democracy again and we have been living an uninterrupted civil life for 29 years.

1980 was an important cornerstone for the country not only in the political but also in the economical sense. Liberalism and free foreign trade had started. Until then, the export and import of goods had been strictly limited, Turkish people were not able to reach foreign markets. But the first civil government after the 1980 coup led by Turgut Ozal changed the situation radically. Now there were plenty of European and American goods in the market and with foreign trade accelerated, many rich people arose in the cities. In the mean time, the political activists of the past were suffering in the prisons of the military, under very unfavourable conditions. The leftist groups in the country suffered a sharp blow but the ordinary citizens were content because the terror in the streets had ended. It was true that the streets were not safe before the intervention. I remember that my mother cautioned me at the time: in case I was questioned by people as to whether I had left or right wing views, I would say that I was only a child and did not know anything about these matters.

In the Turkey of the 80’s, ideals imposed on the younger generation were quite different from those of the 70’s. The revolutionary views and political action were out of fashion. We were supposed to study, get a good job and earn as much as we could. In this atmosphere I chose to study business administration, but it did not take long for me to understand that I was acting very wrongly. I never liked business school and my faith led me to very different paths.

2) In your bio you mentioned how much you loved Ankara, the capital of Turkey, when you were a child but you don’t seem to like it so much today. Why is that?

You know, early childhood is mostly remembered as the happiest period of our lives. In fact, this is a deceptive situation because childhood memories resident in our minds have previously been bent, filtered and distorted in the prism of a child’s brain. This must be the main reason why I used to love Ankara. In fact it was always a dry, tasteless city but I did not know that at the time. Ankara did not get any better. In many years, it completely lost its identity in the coarse hands of a hateful mayor.

3) You mentioned your parents were both intellectuals. Your mother was a radio producer and your father was an actor. You tried acting for a while, but then decided to go with radio production. What made you decide to do that and how did you get started in radio production?

From an existentialist point of view, our lives are determined by our choices. Yet, though I am not a religious person, I cannot help believing that our lives are predestined. Sometimes you cannot open a door, no matter how hard you push. Anyway, I think the wisest thing to say is that acting did not suit me. I did not have the talent. If I did, what would stand in my way? But radio, even though it was my mother’s profession, I never had in mind. I had worked with video for years and it was very distant to my mind to imagine a production without moving pictures. But as I said, I seems to me that I was destined to work in the radio. After a long procedure following my application to TRT, they appointed me to an open position in Trabzon Radio. For economical, psychological and professional reasons, I did not reject it. Trabzon was a small city and I would be away from my family. There was hardship waiting for me and hardship I received, for some time. But today, after 10 years in the radio, I am happy to be in the world of sounds and have no inner wish to make a shift towards television.

4) You’re somewhat of a self-taught English speaker and translator. Tell us a little about how you got started and your dream of reading certain books in English.

I started very young with simplified books. Then came the comics. I do not know why I began to translate my first Asterix in English. What I know is that I always liked the languages and at some point I wanted to have a good command of English. So I began to read and translate. At the beginning, translation was a tool to learn the language. And learning English was half play and half self-competition. I was young and I wished to learn a bit of everything. When one is young, the heavy pressure of time is not felt and life seems limitless. I had to be over 30 to understand that I could not learn about everything, and moreover, I did not need to.

Anyway, with my unfocused hunger I bought books in English, tried to read them and failed. In years, I retried several times and failed again and again. But there was no desperation on my side. I liked to be a learner and had a goal: I would read them some day.

Of course, besides the love of knowledge, I also hoped that learning English would help my professional career in the future. But it was not clear in my mind what career I wished to follow. And of course, I did not know that my future position in the radio would be very local and I would always feel sad that my English knowledge was being wasted.

In this sadness, I felt that I had improved my English to a certain point. My management did not care about this, so what else could I do? I decided to start another self-competition and so began my translation career. Staggering and tumbling, I translated my first book which was an academic compilation of articles. Then came another compilation: Jack London’s compiled writings not previously published in Turkish. After that, I completed a new translation of his “Martin Eden” which is due to be published in 2010. Right now, I am working on Pieter Spierenburg’s “A History of Murder”. I am sure others will follow.

5) How do you juggle translation and radio production?

Translation is both my hobby and my second profession now. It is also my passion. Most of the moments allowed from my work and my family, I commit to translation. This means I spend my night hours translating. I sleep a few hours less for the sake of translating a few pages more.

6) You mentioned in your bio that even though your hometown is small, your personal universe is very big. After reading about you, I got the impression this has a lot to do with your passion for learning. However, I could be wrong. Can you tell us a little bit about your world.

That seems to be quite correct. I live in a small city with limited cultural sources. Without books, writing and translation, the world would be dull. I can’t understand people who keep their profession as the centre of their world. Everyone needs -at least- a second thing to do. For me, that is translation now. Surely there are lots of things I would love to do –travelling, photography, biking, concerts etc. Yet, there is one obstacle: My little children. And do you know, they are the most beautiful obstacles! They make my life meaningful and complete my world. So the basic elements of my personal universe are as follows: The radio, translation, and most of all, my family.

If you would like to contact Yigit, please write to info@tebp.org so we can forward him your request.